Glitch in Mhenlo's healing AI? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Algren Cole · Sep 12, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teklord

Yeah, I suppose it would be hard to pin a definite definition onto that term. I was thinking the type of AI that can show to a limited degree (limited by current abilities with said techonology) self awareness. An ability to adapt to changing environmental conditions and to learn while adapting and be able to anticipate probable changes.

As a very simple example, although quite complex to create in reality, a robot that can 'learn' to walk. Give it a destination clear in plain site and it will walk towards it. Restart the senario, then half way through the walk dump and object in the way. The robot has to realize it cannot travel through the object and to find a new way to reach the destination. With such an AI one could do this test several times over and if landing an obstruction in the same place at the same time eventually it would anticipate the obstruction and begin to change course in order to avoid it before the obstruction appears.

It's out there in today's world, well in R&D departments anyway. Still a ways off before such a technology will be doing more complex tasks such as driving a car and the like. The day is coming though.

Edit: I love the term impossible. Everything is possible. Anything one can every think of is possible, just to very degress of possibility. The very thought that one can think of it makes it possible in your mind. A lot of things have such a small chance of being possible with our limited view of the universe that we have to label it and thus consider it impossible, which in itself is impossible. Nothing is impossible that way. And that leads me to another nice one to wrap ones mind around, Nothing. Nothing doesn't exist in and of itself. Think of this one like this: can you have nothing / hold nothing in your hand? Even if you are holding "nothing" you are in fact holding on to air, or dust particles or "something". Nothing is just another term we had to create to describe a concieved state of being that doesn't actually exist. I love this kind of stuff!

what you described would be simulated intelligence. The robot can guess that the object is going to be there based on several runs that told the application that controls the robots motor movements that the object was in the way. This isn't learning, it's self programming. There have been numerous applications that have used self programming to complete complex objectives without being hard coded. The ability to 'learn' requires an understanding of the concept of knowledge. A computer runs entirely on a series of 0's and 1's calculated to run complex mathematical equations. It's preset in it's nature, it can only do what you tell it to do. And it can only calculate. Simulated Intelligence takes advantage of this and calculates various variables and constants in a scenario to ultimately come to a reasonable conclusion. Like Teklord mentioned in his Robot example. The robot can calculate the odds of an object being there based on repetative runs....but it's not technically learning. It's storing information and calculating that information into reasonable odds.

Lasareth · Sep 12, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Technically speaking, the brain is a computer controlled by complex sodium-potassium gateways across the neurons

It's hard to think about it, but the human behavior is similar to those of computers, in early life. A baby will feel pain caused by say, a hot cup, and will form a set of reactionary precautions to assure that it won't happen again. The human situation is just a lot more complex than that of computers up to this point--the basic programming is still there, though. Cause, effect, and adapt. It's the initial instillment of the ability to adapt that we haven't been able to move into computers. If we can do that, and give such a thing an ample amount of time to create complexes of reactions to situations, then it would be very much like us

Teklord · Sep 12, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Fair enough. Definition of Artificial via Dictionary.com

2. Made in imitation of something natural; simulated: artificial teeth.

I guess what I need to understand now is the difference (if any) between Artificial Intelligence and Simulated Intelligence.

Addition: I'm not gonna get an answer... am I?

chaos dragoon · Sep 12, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

ive seen mhenlo in action.hells precipice. i was dead so i decided to watch mhenlo to see what skills he uses.i found out which ones he used.none of them.the whole time i watched him,he used allmost nothing.just sat there until our whole team was dead.

IndyCC · Sep 12, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasareth

Technically speaking, the brain is a computer controlled by complex sodium-potassium gateways across the neurons

It's hard to think about it, but the human behavior is similar to those of computers, in early life. A baby will feel pain caused by say, a hot cup, and will form a set of reactionary precautions to assure that it won't happen again. The human situation is just a lot more complex than that of computers up to this point--the basic programming is still there, though. Cause, effect, and adapt. It's the initial instillment of the ability to adapt that we haven't been able to move into computers. If we can do that, and give such a thing an ample amount of time to create complexes of reactions to situations, then it would be very much like us

Wouldn't this be reallly creepy and bad for online gaming. Imagine a game where thousands of people played and the AI learned how to adapt to every way these thousand people played to the point that it changes the way monsters stacked and spawned and flanked and so forth. I don't think the game would be beatable after the first person beat it, with thousands behind that first person still wanting that same goal to beat the game. The only beatable game would be the one where only you played it. Even then as you played it would adapt, then you would have to adapt, then it would have to adapt, and so on till I'm guessing the computer would be the only winner. Its like Wargames, "the only winning move is not to play."

Hell Marauder · Sep 13, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Man, I tell ya, that Mhenlo is an evil selfish dude. You all think he has no intelligence. Well, you are all fooled by him. The way I see it, he has intelligence, and lots of it. You see, ANET wants him to use his skills, but he refuses because he doesn't like to be told by us players what to do. You see, he was our master trainer in pre-searing and he thinks it's beneath him to take orders from us. But he doesn't want us to find out, so he secretly chooses not to heal our allie (especially, King Jarlis the dwarf) to sabotage our missions. Remember how he got lost in Ironhorse Mine all by himself (the quest Cynn asked us to find him)? He was actually a stone summit spy on his way to warn stone summit our coming. Lol, now you have exposed his evil scheme, lets hope ANET does something about this traitor. So, you guys still think there's no AI in henchies?

Bingley Joe · Sep 13, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Man, I tell ya, that Mhenlo is an evil selfish dude. You all think he has no intelligence. Well, you are all fooled by him. The way I see it, he has intelligence, and lots of it. You see, ANET wants him to use his skills, but he refuses because he doesn't like to be told by us players what to do. You see, he was our master trainer in pre-searing and he thinks it's beneath him to take orders from us. But he doesn't want us to find out, so he secretly chooses not to heal our allie (especially, King Jarlis the dwarf) to sabotage our missions. Remember how he got lost in Ironhorse Mine all by himself (the quest Cynn asked us to find him)? He was actually a stone summit spy on his way to warn stone summit our coming. Lol, now you have exposed his evil scheme, lets hope ANET does something about this traitor. So, you guys still think there's no AI in henchies?

LOL! Mhenlo's only there to cap skills!

Blue Steel · Sep 13, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos dragoon

ive seen mhenlo in action.hells precipice. i was dead so i decided to watch mhenlo to see what skills he uses.i found out which ones he used.none of them.the whole time i watched him,he used allmost nothing.just sat there until our whole team was dead.

The henchies would not be so mysterious to you guys if you could see their energy levels. If a human player died, you are taking damage WAY too fast for them to keep up and they are already out of energy. They prioritize humans extremely high on the heal order, and if you died, Mhenlo isn't going to do a thing until he has energy again, and depending on the hexes and situation that may be a while, but more likely he will be dead before he gets the chance to heal anyone else, either. Henchmen monks operate under the same constraints as human monks: energy conservation, skill recharge times, and so forth. They just don't call out their energy level ever, so you cannot know where they are at. Wait longer than you would normally between battles, and give the henchies the benefit of the doubt. A good way to know if you are pressing attacks too fast for the henchmen to keep up is by seeing how often Lina uses Aegis. If you waited long enough between battles, she will give you an aegis, a protective spirit, and a regeneration shield when the next battle gets intense. If not, you didn't give her enough time to recover.

Final thoughts of mine of the artifical intelligence debate, if any of you earlier posters are still reading and interested:

How is self-awareness and conceptual understanding of knowledge the measure of intelligence? We have no way of knowing how self-aware a dog is, or how much an infant understands about the concept of knowledge, but we would say both are intelligent, right? Morever, we do know how completely self-aware a machine can be in the sense that it can be equipped with complex sensors to make extremely detailed observations about its environment, be programmed to know its own dimensions, for example, and thus effectively calculate whether it can fit through a tunnel before trying to investigate an area. So what do you mean by self-awareness?

Perhaps by AI, you mean a program that is capable of growing beyond its original limits, and thus adding "new code" in response to experience. Maybe that is what you mean by learning, too. I submit, however, that a program can be designed in such a way that it adds new code. In fact, I can imagine a program that grows with new code based upon an instruction to randomly generate options as a function of a number and a response indexed to that number in an exponentially vast array of combinations of possible solutions to a problem. The program could try a combination of solution ideas that achieve the desired measurable result in such a way that it will add that solution to its reportaire of "good" solutions, create code based upon it, and employ that solution again in future situations that are similar. Isn't that exactly what we as humans do when faced with a new problem? The technology to do that certainly exists today. And it isn't that hard to imagine a machine coming up with a solution that even SURPRISES the inventor of the machine. It might have pulled a random combination of possible solutions that even the original author of the code didn't think of, simply because of the brute force and speed of the computing power. When Deep Blue finally beat Gary Kasparov in chess, the first machine to beat the reigning world champion, Kasparov was shocked by a simple, completely unexpected, and yet absolutely pivotal pawn move that the computer had made. He said at the time that it was like God himself had stepped in and made that critical move because no one else anywhere would have thought of it. That is an example of a machine not only showing human-like intelligence, but of showing in Kasparov's words "God-like intelligence."

But to carry the debate one step further, I think we can find something that Plato and Socrates sought, something that seperates man from animals and humans from machines. And maybe that eluvise idea is what you are intuitively sensing when you say artifical intelligence is not possible; THE MACHINE WILL NEVER GROW OR DEVELOP IN A WAY THAT IS NOT A DIRECT AND EXACT RESULT OF THE RULES AND INSTRUCTIONS IT WAS ORIGINALLY GIVEN. Some day the robots may turn on us and enslave the human race, but if they do it will be because they were able to arrive at that point by following the instructions we originally gave. The machine can add new code, and add it in unexpected ways, but it has to follow the rules. Humans don't always follow the rules. What I believe humans have is a WILL (autonomy, agency, the power to choose). What technologically escapes us is the power to create in a machine a new will. If you believe that humans have no agency, no will of their own, then you believe in psychological determinism (that heredity and environment dictate everything that we do in life) and you have accepted that there is NOTHING that a human can do that a machine cannot also do. Consequently, I reject determinism, as I believe every judgment I make, every word I write, every second I spend doing anything, and every thought I have reflects a choice I have made. So in that sense, I agree with your intuition that humans and machines are different.

Teklord · Sep 13, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Now that was an exciting post to read! I doubt I could do it the justice it deserves in a reply. Very well laid out, I couldn't help but think of movies such as: Matrix, I Robot, and Stealth.

We could easily start getting into whether choice is merely an illusion of control we are given in our lives, and whether or not Destiny can therefore be chosen. I actually don't think about that kind of thing much myself, but I've definitly read things on par with the above post on such topics. Fascinating stuff!

Age · Sep 13, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

When it come to the missions you really aren't suppose to use NPC or henchies.It is suppose to teach you about competive coopertive play with real ppl and players get fidgety and nervous.There are only 2 ways around this and that is to put a quest inside the mission or do the mission with real ppl as I am having a real hard time with the 3 ascention missions with real players and henchies.The coopertive play is suppose to teach you about playing PVP but the best way to do it is to play PVP.

Sep 12, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16	#23
Teklord Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lloyd.ab.ca Guild: Lords of All Profession: R/Mo	Fair enough. Definition of Artificial via Dictionary.com 2. Made in imitation of something natural; simulated: artificial teeth. I guess what I need to understand now is the difference (if any) between Artificial Intelligence and Simulated Intelligence. Addition: I'm not gonna get an answer... am I? Last edited by Teklord; Sep 12, 2005 at 11:43 PM // 23:43..

Sep 13, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40	#26
Hell Marauder Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005	Man, I tell ya, that Mhenlo is an evil selfish dude. You all think he has no intelligence. Well, you are all fooled by him. The way I see it, he has intelligence, and lots of it. You see, ANET wants him to use his skills, but he refuses because he doesn't like to be told by us players what to do. You see, he was our master trainer in pre-searing and he thinks it's beneath him to take orders from us. But he doesn't want us to find out, so he secretly chooses not to heal our allie (especially, King Jarlis the dwarf) to sabotage our missions. Remember how he got lost in Ironhorse Mine all by himself (the quest Cynn asked us to find him)? He was actually a stone summit spy on his way to warn stone summit our coming. Lol, now you have exposed his evil scheme, lets hope ANET does something about this traitor. So, you guys still think there's no AI in henchies? Last edited by Hell Marauder; Sep 13, 2005 at 02:05 AM // 02:05..

Sep 12, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13	#22
Lasareth Aquarius Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place	Technically speaking, the brain is a computer controlled by complex sodium-potassium gateways across the neurons It's hard to think about it, but the human behavior is similar to those of computers, in early life. A baby will feel pain caused by say, a hot cup, and will form a set of reactionary precautions to assure that it won't happen again. The human situation is just a lot more complex than that of computers up to this point--the basic programming is still there, though. Cause, effect, and adapt. It's the initial instillment of the ability to adapt that we haven't been able to move into computers. If we can do that, and give such a thing an ample amount of time to create complexes of reactions to situations, then it would be very much like us

Sep 12, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19	#24
chaos dragoon Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: The Warrior Nation[WN] Profession: R/	ive seen mhenlo in action.hells precipice. i was dead so i decided to watch mhenlo to see what skills he uses.i found out which ones he used.none of them.the whole time i watched him,he used allmost nothing.just sat there until our whole team was dead.

Sep 13, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00	#29
Teklord Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lloyd.ab.ca Guild: Lords of All Profession: R/Mo	Now that was an exciting post to read! I doubt I could do it the justice it deserves in a reply. Very well laid out, I couldn't help but think of movies such as: Matrix, I Robot, and Stealth. We could easily start getting into whether choice is merely an illusion of control we are given in our lives, and whether or not Destiny can therefore be chosen. I actually don't think about that kind of thing much myself, but I've definitly read things on par with the above post on such topics. Fascinating stuff!

Sep 13, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07	#30
Age Hall Hero Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Canada/BC Guild: STG Administrator Profession: Mo/	When it come to the missions you really aren't suppose to use NPC or henchies.It is suppose to teach you about competive coopertive play with real ppl and players get fidgety and nervous.There are only 2 ways around this and that is to put a quest inside the mission or do the mission with real ppl as I am having a real hard time with the 3 ascention missions with real players and henchies.The coopertive play is suppose to teach you about playing PVP but the best way to do it is to play PVP.